On the show this week, with BBC and ITV bosses facing MPs this week and on the ropes, we ask what they can do to regain control of the narrative?
Joining Matt are guests Prof. Lis Howell and Farah Jassat from Intelligence Squared.
Also on the programme – should politicians present news programmes?
As OFCOM starts to ponders the question, we offer an answer or two.
All that, plus… Andrew Tate verses the BBC, and who is the biggest news podcast in the UK? Have a guess. And, in the media quiz… we play Give Us A (News) Clue.
Automated Transcript
Check against delivery
Matt Deegan
Hello and welcome to The Media Podcast. I’m Matt Deegan. On the show today, TV chiefs in the dock with BBC and ITV bosses facing MPs this week and on the ropes, we asked what they can do to regain control of the narrative. Also on the programme should politicians present news programmes as Ofcom starts to ponder the question that we offer an answer or to all that, plus Andrew Tate versus the BBC, and who’s the biggest news podcast in the UK. Plus, in the media quiz we play give us a news clue. That’s all to come in this edition of The Media Podcast.
In the news this week, Channel Four boss Ian Katz sent an email to indies saying last few months had been difficult, but they should hold their nerve. Deadline also reports the channel’s TV audience sank to a record low in May, Idris Elba launched a global marketing business called Silly Face with business partner, Mark Boyan. The Media Leader says the pair met last year while plotting to buy Channel Four, and the celebrated sitcom Black Adder marked Its 40th birthday with the troubled pilots making for a fascinating read on Broadcast’s website this week. Go check it out.
Now joining me at The London Podcast Studios. It’s Lis Howell. Hello, lovely to see you in person. Now we’ll talk about ITV more in a minute with everyone. But as an experienced TV exec and someone who had your own breakfast fun when you do keep doing GMTV What is your take on on this morning?
Lis Howell
Well, it’s very interesting, isn’t it? In fact, I was on the commissioning panel for this morning, way back in the 1980s when they got the gig at Granada. I think that in fact ITV have handled this quite well. They’ve been very quiet. And I think they were very dignified at the hearing. And they made some very sensible points. For example, there have been very few complaints at ITV about the so called toxic environment. I have to say, I don’t really agree with Martin Frizell about fruit and veg and things. But I am a little bit sick of hearing word toxic. Yeah, what does it really mean?
Matt Deegan
I mean, if talents are a complex thing we’ve talked a little bit about about the Phillip Schofield issue before but when you’re sort of in the editor’s chair, or when you have to look after what are quite large teams, dealing with raw talent flare ups, there isn’t a book to tell you what to do is there
Lis Howell
no there isn’t an every single programme that’s successful has difficult times there’s jealousies and resentments. And there’s people who think they should be promoted, and they’re not promoted and people who get promoted beyond their ability. And it’s difficult. It’s a high risk, high reward business. And that’s what you go into. And you know that when you go into it, and that’s part of the fun and part of the excitement, you know, you can rise to the top and you can fall an awful long way as I know, my personal experience. So I think they’ve handled it very well. I keep wanting to say to these people that are quizzing them, these are the pumpers MPs and so on. What should they have done? Yeah, what should it be done? Should they have followed Philip Schofield home? And then if they’d found out that he was having an affair with a younger person, what would they have done? Make him give him up? It’s so complicated and difficult. And I do get really sick of all the hypocrisy and the self righteousness.
Matt Deegan
Well, let’s talk a bit more about that select committee in a little while. But before we get there, though, someone who’s making their media podcast debut, it’s our second guest, the head of podcast Intelligence Squared for just that. Hello. Hi, Matt. Nice to be here. It’s lovely to have you here. You’ve been busy launching a new podcast.
Farah Jassat
Yes, we’re launching a new podcast today. In fact, it’s called vs. And it’s hosted by Coco Khan. The Guardian journalist who you may also have heard on Pod Save the
Matt Deegan
UK. She made it she made an excellent appearance on Pod Save the UK and
Farah Jassat
she’s absolutely fantastic. And she’s boasting asked for a series of essays, which is a podcast all about the little debates that are a big deal to someone. Okay, so
Matt Deegan
what’s a little debate?
Farah Jassat
So our first episode that’s out today is cars versus bikes. And we have two engineers debating it, but in a fun way. So we’ve got Yasmin abdulmajeed and Roma Agra, while they’re both engineers. We’ve got other episodes like the Beatles versus the Rolling Stones. We’ve got London versus New York. That one includes the mooch, Anthony Scaramucci against Simon Jenkins of The Guardian. So it’s kind of fun, takes fun topics, but you’ll learn something from it.
Matt Deegan
Have there been any punch ups from it already?
Farah Jassat
Well, I have to leave that. Listen to me and I’m gonna keep you in suspense.
Matt Deegan
That’s good vs available wherever you’re listening to this. Okay, so Story number one. We’ve touched on it already. TV chief’s in the doc. So not one but two TV bosses are interviewed by MPs in Westminster this week. The BBC is Tim Davey and ITV is Carolyn McCall both spoke to the DCMS select committee. They do love dragging a media person in front of them.
Lis Howell
They really do and I think that there is an element of sort of enjoying getting somebody who was in business said to me the other day MPs what right have they got to quiz ITV on media about It’s moral stance,
Matt Deegan
isn’t it? Because we give them such a hard time.
Lis Howell
Often, you know, they are elected representatives and they should. Well, we all know what’s going on at the moment. So while Tim
Matt Deegan
Davey, he was defending BBC cuts, particularly to local radio, a 30% of income gone over 10 years at the BBC plus inflation at 10%. How did he How did he do? Did you see him before?
Lis Howell
Yes, and I think he did quite well. But the trouble is that local radio is a very emotive thing. And people get terribly worked up about it. And MPs love local radio, because it’s a platform for them, they never off it for it to be honoured don’t. They love it. But I’ve just been looking at some figures, which I think are really interesting. So BBC, local radio costs 124 million, and it’s got 7.7 8 million listeners. So radio for, for example, costs 96 million, and has 10 million listeners. But of those 10 million listeners, six and a half million just about tune in for the two day programme. So for the rest of the channel, there’s really only three and three quarter million. So in a way why skimp on local radio and maintain radio for which without the Today programme has only half the listeners of BBC local radio. Of course, it’s because of the snob element in London and people who think that local radio just by definition must be naff. But I came up with an idea that perhaps you could keep the Today programme, and then put out all the rest of the feed as as it were, to the local radio stations who could pick and mix from the radio for programmes that they like or think are relevant. I just thought it would be interesting to turn it on its head. Why should local radio suffer and radio for carry on when it’s really only the Today programme that counts on radio four?
Matt Deegan
That’s quite as quite a statement to make.
Lis Howell
Well, it’s interesting, isn’t it? It’s turned on its head because I started in local radio where he was great radio leads. And back in the day, it was quite hard to get a job. And I did write to them asking if I could go for an internship. But there’s no such thing as an internship there. And we didn’t even have that language. I just asked if I could hang around. And they said, Well, we’re interviewing for a receptionist. So I went along to be interviewed as a receptionist. And when I got there, I said, Well, I don’t really want to be a receptionist. And but I could only work on a Saturday, I used to do something called the Saturday show at first. But it was a really great place to work. And there was a very, very loyal following. And that I think, is what they’re in danger of losing. far do
Matt Deegan
you think the BBC are under estimating their own local broadcaster?
Farah Jassat
I think they are absolutely, I mean, I think local radio is one of the USPS of the BBC. I mean, it’s a public service broadcaster, this is one of the things in their charter that they can do that commercial rivals can’t do in the same way. And you know, the key with local radio is that it’s local programming made by local presenters for local people. So audiences are hugely loyal. And, you know, you’ll have people listening for decades to the same person, you know, feeling a real companionship, a real sense of community, and decimating local radio in the same way that’s happened with the World Service and those communities around the world. It’s going to have an impact that will only probably realise many years down the road.
Lis Howell
So it’s it’s this obsession isn’t it was getting young, cool people and they’re not going to listen to the radio BBC,
Matt Deegan
the BBC would probably say the BBC across all of its channels caters very well for older audiences, a very high proportion of older people listen to and watch BBC programmes, whereas at the younger end, it’s much more difficult. Why throw them overboard? But are they are they really throwing overboard? They’re not saying there’s nothing for them to consider
Lis Howell
actually that they are throwing them overboard? Because one of the really silly things about this scheme is the idea that if you’re in radio Cumbria, for example, you can take a programme from Manchester in the morning and from Newcastle in the afternoon. People in Cumbria hate that. They want to be cumbrians and listen to Korean material radio
Matt Deegan
two’s probably more successful than BBC Radio Cumbria in that market.
Lis Howell
Well, it probably isn’t. It’s probably national. And radio too is a different matter when I was comparing with radio four, but even radio two isn’t that much more popular proportionally. So why not have a situation where you have read local radio, still making local programmes with local people and not have this sort of fudge where you have regions that don’t really count as regions being artificially put together and put radio two on in the afternoon? Well, if
Matt Deegan
we talk about an age group, so it’s an interesting thing that came up in the select committee discussion, and this was Tim Davies saying that most 16 to 34 year olds don’t believe that any media is impartial. There’s also a lot of impartiality talked about the BBC. I mean, far it’s an interesting challenge for the BBC, an all broadcasters about what young audiences think about media, particularly when they consume so much of it digitally or through social.
Farah Jassat
Yeah, absolutely. I think you know, this notion of impartiality is maybe a notion of a bygone age. I mean, most people going forward feel more trust when they when they know which position a broadcaster is coming from or or a news outlet. I mean, my background is at the BBC. I was at newslite for many years. I believe in the you know, the aim of impartiality but I also believe that it’s probably you know, an unachievable goal. And you’re all you can always aim to be as impartial as you can. But you know, people come from different perspectives from different backgrounds, and there’s no harm in actually just being able to admit that
Lis Howell
I think I couldn’t really see where you’re coming from, although as a journalism teacher, I was teach objectivity and impartiality, but perhaps are very different things they are and I think it’s a question of honesty, if you know where a person’s coming from, that’s what matters. And I think that was very interesting in the in the Gary Lineker case, for example, where I didn’t have any problem at all with Gary Lineker, not on air, giving his personal opinion. The same with Jeremy Clarkson, for example, he was really unpleasant about Meghan Merkel, but I’m glad that I know that about him because it put me right off. And I know the truth about Jeremy Clarkson. So it’s a complicated thing. But I think if you’ve got objectivity, then you can rely on the broadcaster to tell you both sides of the story or all the truth.
Matt Deegan
Well, the other people that were facing a grilling were ITVS, Carolyn McCall and Kevin LIGO, who sort of heads up kind of content and programming facing a grilling from the MPs Liz. I mean, when I started when I was watching that, some of Kevin Lagos statements are pretty good. He’s a good speaker anyway.
Lis Howell
I think all three of them were really good. I was a little bit confused about Carolyn McCall, when she was talking about defamatory or otherwise statements, and then said, well, we don’t mention that I mean, just mentioned, which was either very clever or a bit odd.
Matt Deegan
I was just hoping a bit annoyed. Yes, I
Lis Howell
think very annoyed, because I can absolutely see why they’re so annoyed these people making these allegations they’ve done as I said, their investigation, what are they supposed to do anyway? They can’t put the thumb screws on these people. And you know, all right, Philip Schofield may have pulled the wool over their eyes. But if he wasn’t doing anything illegal, then really there puts them in a very difficult position. Anyway, Kevin, like
Matt Deegan
I said, He’s spoke to Schofield, just before he was about to come out on on transition. And there’s been a lot of discussion about why he chose that moment. Kevin said, he’d said to Philip, is there anything you want to tell me that we should know that has prompted this? And Scofield reportedly said, No, there’s nothing? I mean, and they had an I think they asked 12 times, what are they
Lis Howell
supposed to do go on and on? And I you know, put them on the rackets. It’s absolutely huge, because and there’s a real complications here. If a person is in their 20s, at what point do they take responsibility anyway? And in many of these relationships, it’s the younger person that’s got what you might call the whip hand, you know, they’ve got the power in the relationship. So it’s enormously complicated. And I have said this before, but I think it’s so good. Also, again, what are they going to have a situation where a senior producer can only sleep with an executive producer, or a reporter can sleep with the producer, but a producer can’t sleep with a runner, a runner can’t sleep with the cleaner, but the cleaner can sleep with the executive producer? Where’s it going to end? Are we going to have guidelines for you know, who goes with who in the green room? It’s crazy.
Farah Jassat
I mean, I wouldn’t quite agree with that. The younger people might have the whip hand over all the people in this situation. I’m gonna see immense amount of power in the programme. Yeah, sorry.
Lis Howell
Can I just say I do agree in this situation. It’s obviously perhaps abuse of power, maybe going too far, but certainly inappropriate.
Farah Jassat
Yeah. But I do think, you know, it is a very difficult situation for ITV to be in, as you say, you know, they asked, you know, people tend to 12 times about this. And if you’ve not got evidence, what can you do?
Matt Deegan
I mean, Liz, Kevin also said that a lot of the people that are slacking off ITV are the ones that previously they had a lovely time there, and we’re very happy to stay on the network. Well, I’m
Lis Howell
not gonna argue with that.
Matt Deegan
Another story this week, is off comm. They’re looking into the rising trend of news interviews anchored by MPs, such as Jacob Riis, mog and Nadine Dorries, yes, you’re still an MP at the time of recording anyway, appearing on talk TV. I mean, we are we talked about this, this challenge of impartiality. I mean, actually, if you’re an MP of a political party, you know where they are, is it fine for them actually to be on to be on television, interviewing people or having an opinion?
Farah Jassat
I think it’s fine for them to have opinions. But I think there’s a real problem when you have shows, such as their shows on TV news, where you have a politician from a certain party interviewing other politicians from the same party with no other views. Therefore, there’s no range of views and there’s no objectives. Your impartiality there
Matt Deegan
so often would argue on its current affairs, it’s not new, so that’s okay.
Farah Jassat
I think off comments fudging it completely here. I think they’re late to the party and they’ve they’ve been a bit Toothless over this issue, frankly, because there’s quibbling over format. This is the current affairs programme. Therefore, impartiality rules don’t count. It’s not a news programme, but they basically things on format, which is is a presenter speaking to the audience, is there a reporter segment? Are there VTEs in the package? You know, I mean, I don’t think that looks at the principle behind do impartiality, which is the whole point
Matt Deegan
of it. I mean, as far as right I mean, Ofcom have have, of course, been fortunate that traditional broadcasters have played a Straight bat and the same game for so long and that you’ve been using top TV are sort of following the rules. But it just doesn’t seem it doesn’t seem right.
Lis Howell
Well, I think with GB news, they really like poking the bars of the cage with that gets them lots of publicity. They’re a tiny little outfit really. I mean, they must think all the birthdays have come at once with a human and all the stuff at the moment. But anyway, on top of that, they like controversy, they caught it. And they always say rather grandly, we chose to be on TV than being online. The fact is, they get far more publicity because they’re on on TV, and it’s also more their target audience. So they’re poking the bars that are a bit with Ofcom. I’ve actually got the off gone off comm guidelines is really out for us. So item 5.3 says that no politician may be used as a newsreader interviewer or reporter in any news programme, unless exceptionally it is editorially justified. In that case, the political allegiance of that person must be made clear to the audience. It’s really not a very good guide. For a start, what’s the difference, a news programme and the current affairs programme which is going to say take a newsflash, you know, which I’m one of the things everybody criticised about GB news, when it started was it didn’t have any news? So they’ve got us, you know, between the programmes and so on, and are at the top of the programme. So does that make it a news programme? It’s complicated, isn’t it? And when they say, well, it’s editorially justified, you know, our presenters are brilliant. Everyone’s talking politics, and we can use their views and it’s fine editorially. So it’s really very difficult for Ofcom. They also seen an item 5.5 Do impartiality on matters of political or industrial controversy, and matters relating to current public policy. So this would be the junior doctors, for example, must be preserved on the part of any person providing a service. So this could be achieved within a programme or over a series of programmes. If you have got a politician presenting a programme and consistently being the presenter, you cannot do that, because they’re going to have a partial view.
Matt Deegan
I mean, it has it has radio actually done this much better. So LBC was always sort of held up and occasionally pointed out for doing something wrong, but they look like their their heavenly in comparison to maybe
Lis Howell
well, that chat programmes are very much chat programmes and diverse personalities. And what they do is they have a posing politicians. And that’s the dynamics and it’s quite fun and quite exciting. And it’s also clearly a current affairs programme in the middle of the day, usually. So I totally agree with far I think it’s very confusing. I sort of feel a bit sorry for Congress. It’s a tough call. But they’ve got to clarify this. And they’re going to do it by some sort of survey and see what we all think, oh,
Matt Deegan
far, they’re going to talk to people and try and try and get a view to sort of outsource the decision making somewhat to the outside world. There’s a bit of me that looks at this and the sort of the grumpy people with people who’ve been around in news for quite a long time. Actually, does it open up opportunities for BBC, ITV and Channel Four to to rethink perhaps some of the ways that they put together their news and current affairs programmes?
Farah Jassat
I mean, it can do but ultimately, I think that the main issue here is the Ofcom has certain rules in place. And now, as you said that they are outsourcing it rather than enforcing their own rules or clarifying their own rules. I mean, a case in point that you were just talking about with, you know, the was estimate V interviewing Chancellor Jeremy Hunt, about the budget. You know, I mean, yeah, it’s just incredible. I wouldn’t endorse interviewing Boris
Lis Howell
Johnson would say it was a bit of a party, but that’s true.
Matt Deegan
Then you could argue the audience are entirely aware of their political standing. They understand where they’re coming from, we talked about earlier as well. Yeah, maybe there’s a certain honesty,
Lis Howell
as long as it’s not in the news context. And that’s the difficulty about something like talking about the budget, where it’s a news item, news of the day thing. So I think it’s a really difficult situation. And it’s got it’s got to be resolved. I did do something for the times radio recently, which was about politicians doing pieces to camera as we call them in TV, you know, where the presenter, the sorry, the reporter talks to the camera, and they had some hysterical examples. And one was Jeremy Hunt, trying to explain I think it was inflation with coffee cups. It was so patronising and awful and what struck me was that why do these politicians want to be entertainers that politicians but then
Matt Deegan
that goes back to the ego doesn’t need to be an MP, you need a decent amount of ego and being a telly performer is similar.
Farah Jassat
That’s what one it’s some of the people are saying if on Titans is rules, politicians may have to choose between TV and Westminster, they will surely quit.
Lis Howell
But just to be super topical, Glenda Jackson who’s just apparently said this really funny thing about being in the House of Commons was really just like acting except the lighting was rubbish and it was rather under rehearse.
Farah Jassat
My real worry about this situation with impartiality is not you know, we could be unwittingly going into a Fox News style environment in the UK and that is the real problem where you know, for so many decades we’ve had these rules of do impartiality and broadcast. England and almost by stealth, the rules have changed without anyone realising. And you know, we’re going to end up in an American style polarised news environment. And that is my concern.
Matt Deegan
Just on that, Liz. When Fox News is hugely successful, it’s the most popular cable network out of all of them, not even just the news. I mean, these channels, GB news and talk TV, they’re not successful.
Lis Howell
Well, they’re not in the same league, obviously. But it has occurred to me that perhaps the idea behind GB news is to add more and more towards Fox because Fox is successful, but not on a broad spectrum. It’s successful with a very small targeted audience, which is enormous ly loyal. So it’s a bit like saying, there’s alright for the sake of a better word. There’s a lot of odd people out there with crazy views, but they’re a market they still buy, I don’t know nappies and jam and things so we can still sell advertising and absolutely feast on the fact that they’ve got these crazy views and that’s really the business plan behind Fox News now whereas I’m not sure that GB us is really ready for that but it might be the route it’s going down it that might be part of the whole you know, poking through the parts of off comms page
Farah Jassat
and over the next few years I mean, you know, Boris has just stepped down is Boris gonna get a programme on talk TV I mean, I think there’s a lot of you know,
Lis Howell
potentially start his own channel or you might by the telegraph, who knows
Matt Deegan
so dear. Well, whether you’re odd or not stick around. We’ve got more news after this and we’re back with The Media Podcast listen for is still with me. Time for some news in brief. A couple of weeks ago, you may have seen a BBC interview with a pretty controversial figure Andrew Tate recorded whilst he is under house arrest in Romania, for numerous charges, including rape, human trafficking and exploiting women. For the BBC. His interview was edited and then shortly afterwards, title his sort of social media people released that the sort of own cut totally if people aren’t aware of that story, tell us what happened.
Farah Jassat
Yeah, so the BBC is Lucy Williams in India have interviewed Andrew Tate at his house because he’s currently under house arrest, as you say for many charges, including human trafficking and rape. So as soon as she walked in Lucy Williamson agitates people were filming the encounter until she sat down the whole interview until she left the house is about 40 Something minutes, the BBC obviously recorded the interview itself and then put out an edited version of just under nine minutes. So this has caused a lot of controversy with people online saying, you know, why is the BBC done that they’re trying to hide something and the problem with this is that it’s become a very polarised it was always going to be a polarised issue, you are interviewing Andrew Tate. Now his followers are always going to say that the BBC is going to do a hit job on him, which they are saying already. I think that Lucy actually did really well in that interview. I mean, it was a very difficult interview to have. But you know, if we compare it to other interviews in the past, like, say the Elon Musk interview, which was done by a great reporter, James Clayton, I used to work with him at news night. But you know, Elon gave very little notice it was a last minute interview, a little underprepared. He was a bit underprepared. It was very last minute. And you can see he was a bit caught out as Elon tried to turn the tables on him ask him questions. Now, I think Lucy was very aware of this strategy. And so I was quite impressed. Although I sat I watched this interview, kind of at one o’clock in the morning, because I only meant to watch the first few minutes. And then I just got obsessed. It’s one of those things. I don’t want to be interested in this story. But I have this morbid fascination, like with cults and, you know, with a due date. So I think she did really well, you know, what she did was quietly consistently repeat her questions. And she was armed with facts, even when he was, you know, saying, No, I didn’t say that, even though there’s evidence that he didn’t say that, or you’ve made up this person who’s a witness, which they haven’t made up. You know, I mean, I, to be honest, my heart was beating really fast. I thought, palpitations, I would be incredibly nervous being the interviewer with someone like him. Well,
Matt Deegan
sort of, from the audience perspective, this kind of combines media literacy with being in your own sort of silo of news, but a Trumpism as well or just or just lying. I mean, leads if you if you’re a broadcaster, is this something we should learn from this and say, Actually, should we put up all the rushes should read so we have something for the 10 O’Clock News, and just go, Look, we’re trying to be open and honest, here is everything. I think
Lis Howell
you’ve got to be quite careful because sometimes there are things which both sides wouldn’t want to have edited out. But I’m the programme about Brown and Blair that was on TV quite recently, was wonderful, because it showed them sitting down and preparing for the interviews and in a way that was unfair, but in a way it was incredibly telling. They sound like real people. Yeah. And yes, and they’ll let’s slip certain things that they don’t do in the interview and so on. And of course, I’m sure that was waivers and they had to give permissions and so on, but it really did work as a very interesting show. With Tate I thought what was so amazing was that he came over so absolutely terrible. And that wasn’t because Lucy was good. giving him the opportunity to be absolutely terrible. She was really sort of countering him and so on and, and she was giving him away out on occasions. But he was absolutely awful. And really it was it was unbelievably interesting to watch. Just to answer your question about media literacy, we’ve got so many platforms. Now I can’t see any reason why much longer version shouldn’t be put up, or the whole of the version put up. And we go back to Phillip Schofield and Mirage, and there were the headlines put on the news programmes. And then there was the full length interview, which did have other insights in it. So no reason why not at all, but it will get into a different type of negotiation with the interviewee. That’s the thing that the permissions will have to be different. I think Tate absolutely hung himself in that interview. And I think she did very well. And it was really telling the musk interview made me cringe, I’m afraid.
Matt Deegan
I mean, there’s a question about that comes up whenever these people were interviewed about whether they should be platformed or not. Same with same with Trump. And we’ve talked about the CNN town hall, I should they have let him beyond beyond live television. Should these people be platformed?
Farah Jassat
I think it’s a really difficult question. I mean, with Tate in particular, I think the police in Bucharest came out saying that. Why has the BBC given him VIP treatment? Because he’s under active investigation? And you don’t maybe there is a case there? I mean, what are we going to learn from someone like Andrew Tate that he’s not already said, I didn’t feel we learned much.
Matt Deegan
You know, I disagree. I guess we’re saying when you suddenly see that there is there is nothing. There is nothing really there.
Lis Howell
I think we learned that he is as bad as we’ve been led to believe because I was thinking he can’t be that bad. And I want to hear his side of the story. I’m glad I did. Because it was horrible. And now I know he’s horrible. I guess
Farah Jassat
you’re right. You know, someone like me, I will actually go on social media and look at his stuff. And I all know that but lots of people won’t know they’ll just hear about him. And this is the only way that they’ll actually be able to
Lis Howell
write I have not had time in my life to go and research Andrew tape. But I was absolutely fascinated when he turned upon the news. But so
Matt Deegan
some of these demagogues, they they don’t have to be on traditional media because they’ve got large audiences themselves. So suddenly when they are faced with it, it doesn’t really work for
Lis Howell
them but that gets right back to our input impartial or objective stance, which is when they come up against somebody that’s going to fight them they really don’t like it. And it’s it’s quite entertaining to see how they react. Well. He
Farah Jassat
didn’t like it so much that I didn’t know if you I don’t know if you saw earlier this week he has been discrediting Lucy. I’m really sorry for her on his social media. He has been saying that she’s in love with him. Well, that day is everything. A video of her basically door stepping him on the street with some love music in the background and some love heart emojis over her face.
Lis Howell
Oh, dear. Oh, dear. But I’m glad you did it aren’t you
Matt Deegan
know, definitely that was something that came up this week was the Reuters digital news report. And it shared some interesting research into the top 10 News podcasts in the UK. Far. Did you see who was at the top of the list?
Farah Jassat
I think it was newscast was a BBC Yeah. So
Matt Deegan
three podcasts sort of tied for the top. So news agents. Rest is politics. And BBC news cast. Why do we think those three shows are at the top of the tree?
Farah Jassat
I mean, they’re great political analysis shows their chat shows, you know who the hosts are, they chat to each other. And they’ve all got deep dives. You know, the rest is politics, to former political insiders, the news agent, you’ve got Emily Maitlis, John SOPA, Louis Goodall, experienced journalist, they’ve been around for many years. And newscasts, which has got a great format, which they’ve replicated over things like Brexit cars, Ukraine cast American cast. So I think that, you know, people are interested in learning about the news from people that are, you know, chatting about it.
Lis Howell
Yeah, I think this is really interesting, because there is this current a tendency to have things explained to you. And I don’t like that. And I know other people find it uncomfortable, because there’s a sort of assumption that you don’t really know what’s going on, it’s going to be explained to
Matt Deegan
you, you got to be you got to be really into if you download a podcast, well, you have, but
Lis Howell
also even when you don’t go that deep, but it’s great to have the feeling that you’re being talked to as an equal, intelligent person. And that’s why I like Chris Mason, and I think you’d be a great podcaster when he gets needs to get another job. I hope not for a long, long time, because I get the feeling that he’s giving me that insider thing. I don’t want someone to explain, I want somebody to let me in and give me those juicy bits that maybe you know, I wouldn’t know about ordinarily. And that’s what I think works in the best sort of podcast, the idea that somebody’s saying something that perhaps they wouldn’t say in another environment. I mean, I don’t know about you forever, but I feel much more comfortable and more honest and open chatting away here than on some of the media I’ve done recently where it’s very formal. So things do slip out. And you do have a little bit more of a relationship with the audience and you do tell them things. So like the receptionist at Radio lead story, but there you go, and it makes it more alive.
Farah Jassat
I was interested in that report, though, Matt, about how you know programmes like today in focus, which is a brilliant programme that does sort of deep
Matt Deegan
dives. This is this is this is the Guardians daily podcast. Yes. The Guardians daily
Farah Jassat
podcast that sort of deep dives into issues. I think it’s great podcast. But you know, they didn’t do
Lis Howell
as well as maybe they’re the wrong sort of issues. Well, it
Farah Jassat
seems that the reports saying that many people are not interested in deep dives in the UK. There were some interesting statistics. I think it’s only 8%. of UK audience that listens to news podcasts.
Lis Howell
Yes, it was it was. And it was disappointing in terms of the whole audience, and they were just comparing in a very small area. But I think that that could be to do with the nature of podcasts in that you do want entertainment value as well. And you perhaps need needing your podcasts when you’re doing something else. And you need to be engaged in a way that perhaps asking you to sit down and concentrate and a deep dive doesn’t work. But I listen to podcasts when I’m doing something else is done is that
Matt Deegan
I think a lot of people do it in the same way that listen to the radio. Yeah, exam. It accompanies them on their day. Yeah,
Farah Jassat
absolutely. But in the US, news podcasts accounted for about 19% of lessons. So over double the amount of difference in the UK proportionately.
Lis Howell
I think that might be cultural, because there is an obsession in the US with being deceived. People feel there are conspiracies and terrible things happening. And they don’t really know about them. And they go into podcasts wanting to know the truth. I don’t think we are quite so paranoid. Yet.
Matt Deegan
In the kind of things I thought about those sort of three winners, were they were shows that are particularly if we look at newscast in the news agents that are visualised that have big social media output and following. Do you think that’s essential for shows to be successful?
Farah Jassat
I think in this day and age, it’s becoming increasingly important. You know, there lots of people. I mean, I get the news agent clips on my Tiktok. And loads of people watch those clips, but don’t actually listen to the news agents doesn’t matter. I don’t think it necessarily matters. Because they are I mean, it matters in terms of monetization for the news agents themselves. Yeah, the more people that listen to it, the more you know, the more money they’ll make.
Lis Howell
That’s exactly what I was going to say. Because when monetization of podcasts still confuses me, I don’t understand how they necessarily make money.
Matt Deegan
While it is you can go to patreon.com/podcast. And
Lis Howell
let’s seriously, is it going to be something that I wouldn’t say it’s a flash in the pan? Because it’s obviously not going to be but if you can’t monetize it, what’s where’s it going to go? It reminds me a little bit of the early days of the internet, and I did get involved in having a small business, which was online, and it was impossible to monetize it. We had at one point 1000s of people coming into this particular website, but there was no way before PayPal really getting any money out of it. So in the end, it had to go.
Matt Deegan
I mean, most publishers are finding this a challenge on this. I mean, some publishers have had three or four audio strategies. And for Intelligence Squared, you know, it’s a combination isn’t every events, business and exactly, membership. That’s why
Farah Jassat
it’s so cleverly Yeah, so with the podcasts or the business, you know, you can get you can monetize it through adverts on the on the on the programme, but also through membership, you know, where people get extra concert
Lis Howell
in a way subscription is because it’s a subscription is going to
Matt Deegan
be the model. But also that’s that’s why having a really strong connection with your audience is essential, because you want to convert them into being subscribers and not just passive consumers.
Lis Howell
So really, if you have a sort of a very narrow thing that people are very dedicated to and will pay, then you’re going to make money with your podcast, because I’ve got a friend who wants to do a church music podcast, maybe that’s not such a bad idea. If
Matt Deegan
you find find the audience, I think one of the challenges is you’ve got to be able to tell them that you exist. So where do those people go? What do they consume that you can go? Oh, by the way, there’s this great church music podcast that you could choose, because podcast discovery is still a troublesome thing for any new show.
Lis Howell
Absolutely. As we’ll know, with vs. Sounds ailable, wherever you are already very worked up about bikes versus cars and Beatles versus the stones itself, obviously, the Beatles,
Farah Jassat
one thing I was gonna say about, you know, the top three podcasts. And I’m not just saying this, because Coco’s hosts on verses. But actually, I really think pazzi the UK is going to be rising up the charts over the next couple of months, especially in the run up to the general election. And I wouldn’t be surprised if in one of the next reports, you know, that’s towards the top of the list.
Matt Deegan
Well, so possibly the UK have to declare some interest in doing some work and helping them do some of the marketing. I mean, it’s quite well, it’s working. Well, it’s going to output said the UK is it has an opinion, you know, it is more of a left wing show it they’re not insiders, a lot of political podcasts, they’re insiders or mates of insiders. And I think when that show got established and all that big, big discussions, you know, it was a spin off of pod save America, your consummate insiders, they used to be Obama’s speech writing team. So with this, it’s like do we do we put with initial load of insiders, or actually do we occupy the position of the audience are we outsiders looking in and I think it’s going to be fascinating how that sits alongside those shows. But also think for all politics podcasts. If we go into a change of government. Will they all have a little bit of a bit of a drop have we’ve been lucky To have the the Tory party collapse I mean
Lis Howell
it is really hello or okay politics at the moment isn’t it sort of become almost like crazy celebrity life and it’s fascinating on a gossip level? I think you’re right when things calm down. Will people want to go into it in quite the same way?
Matt Deegan
Well, the ultimate podcast format that I’m still surprised hasn’t been spun off into its own global successful subscription podcast is the media quiz, which this week is in price we always lose. That’s why it hasn’t well, we’ll say due this week, it’s entitled give us a news clue. Give us a news clue. I’ll give you a clue that hints to media story from the week. The less clues you need, the more points you get points as well. But if you doesn’t get it wrong, you’re locked out Geez How many format points are in this I’m gonna say that again. So there’s there’s there’s clues or hints for a media story of the week less collusion need, the more points you get. But if you buzzing the wrong, you’re out like Angela’s in your buzzing with your name. So Liz, you’ll say Liz Farah, you’ll say Farah right. Here we go. Number one. Clue number one. It’s good news for West Yorkshire Dundee in Belfast. Okay, for two points. They’re getting government funding. Oh, oh, is it a I know,
Lis Howell
Liz? Is it about AI and investment in AI? It is sort of?
Matt Deegan
Yes, the government is investing almost 150 million pounds in a network of research labs across the country tasked with developing the next generation of special effects using tech such as artificial intelligence. That’s according to the Guardian. So two points to you for getting it on that that second clip. Well done. Right. Question number two, or three points. It’s Formula One with a ball.
Farah Jassat
Oh, Farah, who? Is it Netflix entering the live sports space?
Matt Deegan
It is. They’re in talks to livestream their first sporting event, only it sounded quite a good idea. So a celebrity golf tournament featuring golfers and f1 drivers. I can’t imagine anything worse. It sort of combines doing something live doing sport with some celebrity.
Lis Howell
If you put them together, we’ll have to watch them at all.
Matt Deegan
Would it be something that you’ll you’ll click on?
Farah Jassat
Not personally, but I think you know, for Netflix, it’s quite an interesting move for them to make to go into this sort of live sports space and to experiment with something that’s a little bit low risk here. It’s not, you know, a household event. And there’s definitely
Matt Deegan
some rumours they were they were into bid for things like Formula One, be found too expensive. I mean, if you can’t, if you can’t buy it, create something new.
Lis Howell
This isn’t really live sports streaming. This is an entertainment show. And I think it’s quite genius.
Matt Deegan
Right. So three points as far as to for you, Liz. So it’s probably on this one. Question number. Three points. It could be you but certainly not PaddyPower. King George the sixth Chase could make Kings Cross for two points. And three, don’t bet on the ad market.
Lis Howell
Oh, isn’t the oldies radio station?
Matt Deegan
It is not your frozen out? Farah. So it could be you but certainly not Paddy Power. King George, the sixth Chase could make Kings Cross and don’t take a bet on the ad markets.
Farah Jassat
I’m sorry, I’m gonna freeze myself.
Matt Deegan
This is the news that the Guardian has banned gambling advertising from its publications. I mean, gambling is a huge, it’s incredibly a huge driver for lots of media, particularly, particularly sports media. Are they biting the hand that feeds them? Or is this a good thing for them to do?
Lis Howell
It’s definitely morally a good thing for them to do. But if you do bite the hand that feeds you and your business dies as a result, then that’s not so great.
Matt Deegan
I mean, is this something that TV channels should follow suit with?
Farah Jassat
I mean, I think morally, it’s a good thing to do Intelligence Squared, we’ve turned down many opportunities to actually make money on those grounds. And it’s a difficult call, though, because you do put your organisation in a difficult position.
Matt Deegan
I think far you’ve just won that. So congratulations, Liz, again, you’ve failed to win.
Lis Howell
I’d say it’s a draw. At least I’m consistent. But as a prize,
Matt Deegan
you get to, you get to decide what The Media Podcast gambling policy is. So you can come away with the documents and data don’t have to do that. And that’d be great. So well done. Thank you. So you both where can people keep up with what you’re up to?
Lis Howell
Well, I’m still involved with the expert women project and we have a website and we’re going to have hopefully a big conference next year after 10 years of campaigning for more women experts on the news, I have a horrible feeling it probably rose to a peak in around 2015 And certainly in the pandemic it was women overboard as usual. So yeah, on the website address, its expert women project and for how can people keep up with what you’ve been doing?
Farah Jassat
Just go to intelligence squared.com We are a live events and podcasts business so you can find our podcast search for Intelligence Squared, or the new one. On vessels, which is vs. And if you’re in London and want to attend any of our live events in person, check out our website.
Matt Deegan
Brilliant. Thank you both. Thanks so much for joining us today and whisper it quietly. But most podcast studios look very similar. But here at the London podcast you use there’s a brilliant video backdrop that can change with your podcasts complete with a setup, so easy to use that even our producer can do it. Just head to the London podcast studios.com. There’s also a link in the show notes there too. And if you follow up podcast next week, you’ll hear our deep dive with Matt Kelly and Matthew D’Ancona from The New European talking about their view on the media landscape. So make sure you follow. Also want to tell your colleagues about it. We’d love to spread the good word of the podcast and more people tune in. My name is Matt Deegan, the producer as Matt hill it was a Rethink Audio production. I’ll see you next week.